The Talk of Paris: Ulysse Gosset interviews Mikhail Gorbachev

50th guest : Mikhail Gorbachev, former President of the USSR

     Ulysse Gosset: Welcome to France 24 for this exceptional edition of The Talk of Paris - exceptional because today we are welcoming our 50th guest. After Kofi Annan, the great Secretary-General of the UN, and his successor Ban Ki-moon; after the Brazilian President Lula and President Ahmadinejad of Iran, we have the honor today of receiving Mikhail Gorbachev. Good day to you.
     Mikhail Gorbachev: So this is a real anniversary! I'm the 50th guest!
     Ulysse Gosset: Today we are receiving a man who is an important symbol of the history of the 21st century, a living symbol. You were President of the Soviet Union, you were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and you are the Founder and Chairman of Green Cross International, an organization whose mission is to fight for the defense of the environment, the defense of the planet.
     With us in the studio is Christian Makarian, Deputy Editor of the French news magazine, L'Express, which will also be publishing this interview.
     Mikhail Gorbachev, we have seen that you are a great defender of the environment. You were also the father of Glasnost and Perestroika. Today, I would like to ask you whether your main combat today, the combat to which you are devoting your energy, is the defense of the planet? Is this the combat that inspires you today and how are you today, you, personally?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: The years pass; I am 76 and in four months I will be 77. It is a good age - I am a man with great experience, a man whose words are credible. Today, my priority is the child I have created - my favorite child: Green Cross International, and I must say that without doubt, the world's number 1 problem today is ecology.
     Today, our work is a little easier. During the first few years of Green Cross, we felt we were talking to a wall - there was no reaction. Now, we know that everyone has realized the importance of this issue. There is a problem with water, with rivers, forests, with the glaciers that are melting, the climate that is changing, hurricanes that are becoming increasingly severe. Something very serious is happening. In fact, it's always like this with a problem, until we reach the point where we can ignore it no longer! We keep on talking but we don't do anything. So what happened with Rio de Janeiro? We formulated a good strategy of sustainable development, but it is a very complex issue and cooperation is crucial. We sowed an idea, but it did not go any further. Indeed, some people said that Rio achieved nothing at all. If things had continued like that, it would have been really tragic, but this is no longer the case, because people are no longer waiting for the press or the politicians to tackle the subject. People are acting: they start by protecting the gardens where their children play from pollution and go on to devote their energies to protecting the forests, the rivers and nature as a whole. This is an enormous change in mentalities and it is the reason why we created our organization.
     Christian Makarian: Mr. Gorbachev, when you have been the leader of a superpower as the Soviet Union was and then become a defender of the environment, how do you handle such a conversion? Was it a sudden revelation, or, as you recounted in your book, was it Chernobyl that forced you to take a stand?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: No, it was no accident for me. You know that I was confronted with the problem of the environment a very long time ago when I was still a child. If you have read my book, you will know that I mention the time after the war, when the fields were abandoned and farming was completely disorganized. We had dust storms that carried off the most fertile layers of the soil - the winds are very fierce in the Northern Caucasus. At the time, my father took me with him to the fields. I was still a child but already I knew how to drive a tractor and I saw how the wind was destroying the plants and that, year after year, we had no harvest. When I became Secretary of the Central Committee and Brezhnev gave me responsibility for agriculture because I came from a great farming region, I began to understand the most serious problems of agriculture, the earth, people and their motivation for work. While studying these problems, I saw that we had a totally mistaken attitude towards the earth itself and towards the people who farmed it.
      Ulysse Gosset: But Chernobyl was a shock all the same, an event that really galvanized you?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I discovered what had really happened and Chernobyl demonstrated just how vulnerable we are, the paucity of our means and how much it was going to cost. We had to spend 14 to 16 billion rubles to halt the disaster in a single reactor. The whole country was involved. It was then that the whole force of the thing struck me. For me, there was life before Chernobyl and life after Chernobyl.
     Christian Makarian: Do you believe that the way people perceive the problem of the environment has changed radically in Russia today?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: No, it hasn't changed radically, but it is in the process of changing substantially, among all sectors of society, starting with the Muscovites who are fighting for the ecology in their neighborhoods. I cannot say that everything has been done - there is still a great deal to do. We cannot take the environment lightly. Things have changed, but, to be frank with you, I cannot say that everything has changed; however, to answer your question, and addressing my fellow Russians, I say that we still have a great deal to do, let's be honest with ourselves! The difference is that now our country has the right resources, it is possible to insist on change.
     Ulysse Gosset: Do you believe that the problems of global warming and the consequences that it may have can lead to war - war around water resources, for instance. This is one of the causes supported by your foundation: to prevent conflicts arising around environmental issues. Is there a threat in the future of wars around the environment, wars around water - that type of conflict?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: To begin with, there are already a great many conflicts around the future of forests and lakes, and around the supply of water for irrigation. Already, under Brezhnev, I was responsible for the sharing out of water. It is therefore not surprising that Kofi Annan said that future wars would be fought not over oil but over control of fresh water, and now everyone understands that water is the number 1 problem! You know that one billion people do not have access to clean water; they live under very difficult conditions of health and sanitation and, according to the WHO, the first cause of disease throughout the world is drinking water that is not fit for human consumption.
     Christian Makarian: Exploitation of natural resources is still the main driver of Russian economic growth. Does this not worry you?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, that has always been a source of concern and it continues to worry me, since wealth is giving the inhabitants of Russia bad habits - there is a huge amount of waste. During perestroika, we had already started to fight against the squandering of resources. Now, the situation is changing for the better thanks to the stabilization of the country by Putin, after the chaos of the Yeltsin years. Now, we are embarking on modernization and I believe that Putin is on the right track, because we cannot keep the country going on the drip-feed of oil. Of course, it is interesting to note that we have been lucky with oil prices under Brezhnev and under Putin, but when perestroika started, I was dealing in 1985 and 1986 with an oil price that had fallen to 10 or 12 dollars a barrel, and I said: "If only it was at least 30 dollars, not even 50, 60 or 80..." If oil had been 30 dollars a barrel at the time, perestroika would have been protected.
     Ulysse Gosset: I suggest that we take a look at your personal trajectory. Let us watch this profile of you produced by a France 24 journalist, Sylviane Bahr.

Profile

     Ulysse Gosset: What's your reaction? When we see that you made an ad for a big luxury brand, we wonder why you did that, what was the money used for - was it to support your foundation or for another purpose?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: I am happy to talk about this since I have absolutely no problem with this subject. There are people who think they are superstars and who imagine that they were born solely to perform one task. Let me tell you an anecdote. I was taking a walk with my good friend François Mitterrand; we were strolling around Paris together. Various Parisians came up to us and asked us to sign autographs. Mr. Mitterand, who looked straight ahead, rather in the manner of De Gaulle, said: "The President of France does not give autographs." But I took their books and I said: "The President of the Soviet Union does give autographs" and I signed my name! I believe that this anecdote closely reflects my personality - for me, this is not a problem; it's something normal and legitimate. Advertising in the streets, on television, in the cinema, it represents billions of kilometers of film - two ads featuring Mikhail Gorbachev in 10 years, that's nothing extraordinary. For me, it was a period when I had to settle financial problems for my foundation and I agreed to do an ad for Pizza Hut. I was very well paid for this. We were in the process of constructing a building for my foundation and the workers were starting to leave the building site, so we had to find money to pay them. That was the first ad. I did the second ad, for Louis Vuitton, when we had almost finished the building, but were also creating a center for treating childhood leukemia. We had to move ahead with the project. We were working with a great Russian entrepreneur, a member of parliament, Alexandre Lebedev, who was putting up the building but we needed equipment for it. The building cost 2 million and the equipment almost 10 million. I am very grateful to all those who helped us: the Germans, the British, the French, the Dutch - everyone helped us. So we were able to buy the medical equipment and the center is the most recent and undoubtedly the best equipped in Europe. If you look at other foundations in the West, they are all supported by governments, in one way or another.
     Ulysse Gosset: How much did Louis Vuitton give you?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: Wait a minute! That's none of your business! I don't ask you how much you earn!
     Ulysse Gosset: But you gave us the figure for Pizza Hut!
     Mikhail Gorbachev: They gave me a lot of money, but it wasn't excessive either! Pizza Hut paid more and even that wasn't enough. The person who helped us, among the billionaires, was Ted Turner, the founder of CNN, who acted like a billionaire with a heart, the soul of a true proletarian. When he learned that we had a problem, that we couldn't pay, he donated the biggest amount for this center. And afterwards, he monitored the project to ensure that the money was well spent. Now, the foundation is up and running and it is a very important foundation.

End of Part One

     Ulysse Gosset: Here we are again in the studio for this exceptional "Talk of Paris" with our 50th guest Mikhail Gorbachev, Nobel Peace Prize winner, Chairman of Green Cross International. Also with us in the studio is Christian Makarian, Deputy Editorial Director of the major French news magazine L'Express, which will be publishing this interview.
     Mr. Mikhail Gorbachev, do you have any regrets about your political life and, particularly, your failure at the end of the Soviet Union when you were forced to hand over power? What political regrets do you have today?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: In the profile of me that you showed, I would like to correct an historical error: you said that Boris Yeltsin forced Mikhail Gorbachev into retirement! But it's not true! No one forced me into retirement! I did not officially hand in my resignation.
     The biggest mistake was the collapse of the Soviet Union, that's the point that should be emphasized. What happened was the fault of the West. You said that I handed in my resignation, but I did not! When I saw the agreement that had been signed to create a new community of states, I went on television and declared that I would cease my activities as President. I was not forced to do so, I could have stayed, I could have convened the Congress of People's Deputies, the Supreme Soviet. I could also have called on the army but I saw that what was happening was irreversible, that the people would be divided, even if they had voted in March for preservation of the Soviet Union. But I didn't want any bloodshed, so I did not take these measures. However, one can't say that I resigned, contrary to what you say.
     Ulysse Gosset: Any regrets?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, a lot of regrets!
     Ulysse Gosset: And if there was only one?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: First of all, the collapse of the Soviet Union! We were too slow with our reforms: people were for reform and at the same time they wanted to preserve the Soviet Union. Almost 78% voted to preserve the USSR. That was what I proposed: I wanted to organize a referendum since I thought that it was for the people to decide, that we could not decide that without them, that it would not be democratic. So, that is my main regret, that I was too slow in reforming the party, which slowed down perestroika. There are many other regrets too. You know, your former Prime Minister Raymond Barre, with whom I have kept in contact, said to me one day: "Listen Mikhail, Vladimir Putin is facing a very tough situation. In this kind of situation, no matter what system you have in place, to succeed you must have recourse to authoritarian measures!" But from what I know of Putin, he is not going to establish an authoritarian regime. I can say that Putin has his problems, that sometimes he makes mistakes, but that he is moving in the right direction. He is carrying out reforms, he is modernizing. True, some of his actions are authoritarian, but after Yeltsin, the army was on the point of breaking up, the social services had all stopped functioning; the health system and the schools were not working... What do you expect him to do - consult the etiquette books for advice?
     Ulysse Gosset: A question from Christian Makarian about Vladimir Putin.
     Christian Makarian: How would you describe your personal, individual relations with Vladimir Putin?
Mikhail Gorbachev: We are not close friends but we enjoy friendly relations; we trust each other. Sometimes, when one of us thinks it necessary, we meet, but I am not his adviser. When I believe that something has to be said, I say it openly, via the press.
     Ulysse Gosset: When Vladimir Putin restricts freedom of opinion, when we see opponents being imprisoned or the murder of Anna Politkovskaia that has still not been solved, are you not critical about the absence of democracy? On these issues, are you not worried for democracy in Russia? Some say even that Putin is a new dictator: what do you say to that?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: That is not my opinion. Putin is a man who is very serious about his presidential obligations. He pulled Russia out of chaos and now the country has picked itself up and it's working! You know, I have reflected a great deal on who criticizes who, when and why. During the Yeltsin era, workers' salaries weren't paid for months or even years. If that had happened in France, there would have been chaos and the French would have risen up and overthrown their government! Well, in Russia, people were very unhappy about this too.
     I think that Putin reacts to criticism in a serious way. He told me that he is for a free press, but it must be a responsible press. I believe that is the right attitude because the press sometimes goes overboard and abuses its freedom and I believe that it is not always done in harmony with morality or responsibility. Without these rules, the press cannot function normally. Finally, Putin meets the press more often than anyone, more than I did; he speaks with journalists, they ask him questions, any question at all; he works a great deal with the press and that is a good thing.
     Ulysse Gosset: And what about Anna Politkovskaia?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: For the murder? Yes.
     Ulysse Gosset: For the murder of Anna Politkovskaia...
     Mikhail Gorbachev: You know I am a shareholder in this newspaper, alongside Lebedev. I have been associated with this newspaper for several years.
     Ulysse Gosset: Do you think they will find her murderer?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: I hope so, but there are many murders that have never been elucidated and the question is to know who the murderer is if you can't prove it. So, I hope the murderer will be found and I believe that it is Putin's intention to do whatever is necessary to find her murderer.
     Christian Makarian: If Vladimir Putin is not responsible for this situation vis-à-vis the press and yet Anna Politkovskaia was indeed murdered, does this mean he is not completely in control of the situation? What are these forces that are able to act outside the control of the government?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: I believe that it is the responsibility of society as well as the government, that is the real problem. Everyone thinks that we have made a great deal of progress in democracy, but we are simply emerging from the period of transition and moving towards firmly established democratic institutions. These questions are often asked by the Americans - they say they want us to have the same kind of democracy as they have, but I am delighted! You must think that we are extremely talented people. Of course, we are more talented than you, but do you really think that we can do in 200 days what you have been doing for 200 years? We have barely emerged from 70 years of a totalitarian system that repressed any form of democracy, where one party controlled everything! So, you have to wait, you must be patient. I know the French temperament - it's almost as strong as the Russian temperament, mentally; we feel close to each other, we understand each other.

Results of poll

     Ulysse Gosset: I now suggest that we look at the results of a poll we carried out with our partner Harris Interactive, with the International Herald Tribune and France 24, a poll looking at influence in the world, and you will see that Russia is still highly placed, according to these results that we will be looking at together. They show that for the majority of people polled, Russia is once again becoming a power, a major power; is this the end of your country's period of humiliation? Do you believe that Russia is once more becoming a great power and what is your reaction to this? What do you think of this development: are you happy, are you satisfied, are you proud?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: It's not a question of pride. The country has picked itself up, it's moving forward and that's because people have succeeded in resolving their problems and emerging from the crisis and, of course, economic conditions were very favorable. I believe that God has helped us, is helping Russia emerge from the crisis. We should not forget that in the West and the East, our friends were not very worried about the situation in Russia and they applauded Yeltsin. What we saw was that things were going badly and the West was applauding! So, I asked myself, what does the West want? You, as a journalist with L'Express, are you going to applaud because Russia is on its knees? Are you satisfied because you can write negative articles about Russia? No! Me personally, I am very happy that we got rid of Yeltsin - in fact he left of his own accord; only 2% of Russians supported him, that is to say, almost nobody. Now, Russia has picked itself up; it is still Russia, with its experience, its culture and its history, ready to participate in all the processes going on in the world. Russia's absence from the world stage when the country was in crisis was very bad for Russia, for Europe and for the world. But now, the voice of Russia is listened to, this voice is present and Russia accepts this responsibility. And maybe some people say it, but the genuine elites don't talk about the renaissance of a super empire - the idea of a superpower is a relic of the Cold War - but we are, all the same, a great power. Russia will be a reliable and stable partner, but maybe it's more interesting for Europe to talk of Russia blackmailing you over energy.... I don't know who is the hostage of whom. If you stop buying from us, we will be in a bad situation too. What is important for us is that we are friends and historic partners. We have to do business together and Russia must fulfill its obligations.
     But you know, the West criticizes us: why do we sell our gas half-price to Ukraine, Moldavia, Byelorussia and Georgia? The market should be the same for everyone. We warn our partners one year in advance; we organize committees to solve these problems, but the supreme authorities of these countries say: "Russia cannot raise its prices, we are brothers." So, to ensure that the market is the same for everyone, Russia tells these Republics in advance that it will have to align prices on world prices and then we start taking concrete measures. And at that point, the whole of the West rises up to defend Ukraine and Byelorussia, etc., saying: "You are punishing these countries!" I would like to confirm that Russia is a reliable partner, a good partner that provides guarantees for everything and that we Europeans can always solve any problems that arise between us. You must not put Russia in a difficult position. There is no Machiavellian plan. Where is it written that Russia wants to become an energy superpower?
     Ulysse Gosset: Another subject that everyone is talking about today - is there a risk of another Cold War or not? What do you, as a major figure in history, think?
      Mikhail Gorbachev: ...
     Ulysse Gosset: You were instrumental in bringing the Cold War to an end and for that reason you won the Nobel Peace Prize. Is there a risk of it happening again today?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: That is why I very carefully observe what is happening. There are a lot of things that I am not happy about. I don't think this is what politics should be like - I don't think that politics means a permanent quarrel. Accusing each other of things instead of discussion, it should be unacceptable. I believe that today we can still reverse the trend. We are, once again, carrying on discussions with Germany, France and the United States and I hope that the results will be positive. We're not going to solve our problems with rockets. We must keep talking, take our discussions even further. But we should act now because tomorrow it will be too late and the crisis will affect everyone everywhere. We cannot resolve this crisis with canons or by waging war. Otherwise, the whole planet will disappear and us with it!
     Ulysse Gosset: Mikhail Gorbachev, thank you for agreeing to be the guest of the "Talk of Paris", its 50th guest. Thank you, Christian Makarian from L'Express.
     Mikhail Gorbachev: You've cut 10 minutes from my time....
     Ulysse Gosset: Oh, very sorry. It was very interesting. I was going to ask you if you would stand as a candidate for the presidency against Putin now that you have created a new party, the Union of Social Democrats. Are you keen to stand for the presidency?
     Mikhail Gorbachev: No, I don't have any such plans.
     Ulysse Gosset: Thank you, Mikhail Gorbachev and good luck.
     Mikhail Gorbachev: Thank you.